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Dec 3 08 7:26 PM
"yes by the most respected mansicripts , UBS4/Na27 Revelation 4:11 Kuryous is used as nominative and also in John 13:13 where jesus says you adress me as Teacher and Lord. there are other manicripts that use kurie the vocative but is not among the most respected for Revelation 4:11.
Dec 3 08 7:30 PM
My original study of John 20:28 has been condensed for the Research files online here (there were 6 end notes, for example). I thought I had dealt with John 13:13 in the condensed version, but upon further examination, I don't see it there. So here is the way it was discussed in the original (first a segment of the main text and then the end note it refers to:
The very fact that the words of Thomas are not a complete statement show that it is probably the abbreviated form of a common expression or doxology (#2 above) and not a statement of identification such as "you are my lord and my god." Whereas doxologies and other common expressions are frequently abbreviated to the point of not being complete statements (cf. Dana & Mantey, p. 149), statements of identification appear to be complete statements (certainly in the writings of John, at least), e.g., Jn 1:49, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel." - NASB. Cf. Jn. 6:14, 69; 7:40, 41; 9:17; 11:27; 21:7. Furthermore, when using the term "Lord" (at least) in address to another person, a different form of the NT Greek word is used than the form found at John 20:28 (ho kurios mou).
"The vocative is the case used in addressing a person ....
This is especially true of "Lord" and "my Lord" in both the Septuagint and the New Testament. Kurie (Kurie), not kurios (kurioV), is the form used when addressing someone as "Lord" or "My Lord." ("God," qee, however, is not so certain.)
We can see a good example of this vocative form, which is used in addressing a person as "Lord," at 3 Kings 1:20, 21 (1 Kings 1:20, 21 in modern English Bibles) in the ancient Greek of the Septuagint: "And you, my Lord [kurie mou], O King ..." - 3 Kings 1:20, Septuagint. Then at 3 Kings 1:21 we see the same person (King David) being spoken about (but not addressed) in the same terms as Jn 20:28: "And it shall come to pass, when my Lord [o kurioV mou] the king shall sleep with his fathers .... - 3 Kings 1:21, Septuagint.
We also find Thomas himself, at Jn 14:5, addressing Jesus as "Lord" by using kurie (kurie.) And, when addressing the angel at Rev. 7:14, John himself says kurie mou ("My Lord")!
5. So, when addressing a person as "Lord" or "my Lord," kurie (kurie) was used. But some trinitarian scholars who refuse to give up this scripture as one of their best "proofs" say that we have to accept the nominative form of "Lord" (kurios, kurioV ) as an alternate form used as a noun of address (vocative) in John.
For example, the noted (and highly trinitarian) NT Greek scholar Dr. A. T. Robertson insists that "My Lord and my God" of Jn 20:28 must be understood as nouns of address in order for this verse to be interpreted as a trinitarian statement as he wants. (Moule and Harris have also been noted above as adopting this "vocative" understanding.)
He tried to find some authority for claiming that "My Lord and my God" (especially "My Lord [ho kurios mou]") must be interpreted as nouns of address (vocative case nouns) even though they are actually nominative case nouns (nouns used as subjects, predicate nouns, and their appositives). However, he has managed to find only two examples in the entire NT in his attempt to back up this interpretation.
It is true that for some nouns the nominative form can be used as a vocative. But in the cases of kurios (translated "Lord," "master," and "sir") and didaskalos ("teacher," "instructor") the true vocative forms (kurie and didaskale) are probably always used by the NT writers when actually intended as nouns of address.
Nevertheless, Robertson points to Jn 13:13 and Rev. 4:11 (the only such "examples" of "Lord" being used as a nominative in place of a vocative he could find in the entire NT).
Most Bibles say at John 13:13, "You call me teacher [ho didaskalos] and Lord [ho kurios] and rightly so for that is what I am." - RSV, KJV, NIV, NASB, ASV, JB, NEB, LB, AT, Mo, CBW, MLB, Beck, Lattimore, Barclay (John, Vol. 2, p. 139). Or, in other words, "You say that I am your teacher and your master, and you’re right. That’s what I am." The sense of such a rendering is actually that of a predicate noun (nominative) or direct object (accusative), but not a noun of address (vocative).
Nevertheless, Robertson insists that this is an example of the nominative case kurios being used as a noun of address. (But compare other uses of "call me [him, her]" such as Mt 22:43, 45; Mk 10:49; 12:37; Lk 20:44; 1 Pet. 3:6. - none uses a noun of address. Also notice that all uses of "Satan" used in address are the vocative Satana whereas the nominative Satanas is used at Rev. 12:9 - "serpent who is called the Devil and Satan [Satanas]".
For further evidence of this, "teacher" [didaskalos in all its forms] is used 51 times in the NT. It is clearly, indisputably used as a noun of address for a total of 31 times and, like kurios, always in the vocative form (didaskale).
Yes, all 6 times it is used as a noun of address in Matthew (Mt 8:19; 12:38; 19:16; 22:16; 22:24; and 22:36), it is always in its vocative form: didaskale ! All 10 times that Mark uses "teacher" as a noun of address (Mk 4:38; 9:17; 9:38; 10:17; 10:20; 10:35; 12:14; 12:19; 12:32; and 13:1), it is always in its vocative form: didaskale ! All 12 times that Luke uses "teacher" as a noun of address (Lk 3:12; 7:40; 9:38; 10:25; 11:45; 12:13; 18:18; 19:39; 20:21; 20:28; 20:39; and 21:7), it is always in its vocative form: didaskale ! And all 3 times that John clearly uses "teacher" as a noun of address (Jn 1:38; 8:4; and 20:16), it is always in its vocative form: didaskale ! (The only possible exception is Jn 13:13.)
So for certain trinitarians to say that it is used as a noun of address in the nominative form (didaskalos) one time only in the entire New Testament at John 13:13 (where the interpretation of a noun of address is disputable anyway) is highly improbable at best!
And when we add the further evidence that "Lord" (kurios) is also always used in the vocative form [kurie] when it is clearly intended as a noun of address in the NT, we have really clinched the case.
After searching through the NT (using an online search and the trinitarian New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible) to find all the places in the New Testament where kurios and kurie are clearly used as nouns of address, I found a total of 119 such instances (which include translations of "Lord," ‘sir," and "master") in modern texts and 120 in the Received text. All of them use kurie! The only places kurios is sometimes translated in a way that it appears it could be a noun of address are found at John 13:13 and Rev. 4:11. (See above for examination of John 13:13.)
We find that the Gospel of John itself uses kurie 33 times: every time "Lord" (or "sir") is clearly meant as a noun of address (John 4:11, 15, 19, 49; 5:7; 6:34, 68; 8:11; 9:36, 38; 11:3, 12, 21, 27, 32, 34, 39; 12:21, 38; 13:6, 9, 25, 36, 37; 14:5, 8, 22; 20:15; 21:15, 16, 17, 20, 21) the only possible exception seems to be John 13:13 (examined above for use of "teacher") which uses kurios.
The only other possible exception (Rev. 4:11) outside the all-important (for the purpose of this study) Gospel of John also does not clearly intend its use of kurios as a noun of address. It probably uses it, in fact, as an appositive (which in this case would have to be the nominative case kurios).
[[Rev. 4:11 also uses kurie in the Received Text, and, therefore, is properly used as noun of address and is so translated in KJV; NKJV; MKJV; Young’s; RVR; Interlinear Bible; Third Millennium Bible; Webster’s Bible Translation; – also, apparently, the Living Bible.
It is also used as a predicate noun in a complete clause in the Jerusalem Bible (‘You are our Lord and our God,") – which also seems an honest rendering).]]
The very best evidence, then, is that kurie was always used when "Lord" or "My Lord" was intended as a noun of address!
So, again, there is not even one valid, certain example in the entire New Testament to back up the trinitarian assertion that the nominative kurios in John 20:28 should be understood as a vocative. But there are many straightforward, indisputable examples (120 of them in the Received text; 119 in the newer texts) to show that John 20:28 was not intended as a noun of address signifying identification.
* An appositive is a noun which follows and further identifies another noun. For example: "I saw Jim, the mailman, eat my letter." "The mailman" is an appositive since it follows "Jim" and further identifies him. In NT Greek the appositive is normally in the same form as the noun it identifies. For example, in Jn 17:3 we see: "eternal life means to know you, the only true God" - GNB. Here the word "you" is in the accusative case in the NT Greek. Therefore, the word "God," which is the appositive for "you," must also be in the accusative case: "theon" (qeon). And when we examine John 13:14, we find: "I, your Lord and Teacher, have just washed your feet." - GNB. Here the word "I" is in the nominative case ("ego") since it is the subject. Therefore, the words "Lord" and "Teacher," which are the appositives for "I" in this sentence, must also be in the nominative case: kurios and didaskalos. And, again, at Rev. 4:11 we see "Worthy art thou, our Lord and God, to receive glory ..." - RSV. Here "thou" is in the nominative case and, therefore, "Lord" and "God" as appositives of "thou" are also in the nominative case: kurios and theos.
Dec 3 08 7:35 PM
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Dec 3 08 7:53 PM
I've been trying to find a copy of the Sinaitic Manuscript (or aleph) to see how it is written at Revelation [Apocalypse] 4:11.
I haven't been able to find a copy of that manuscript, but finally have found the following two examinations of Rev. 4:11 as written in that manuscript.
The first is a translation into English of the manuscript:
CODEX SINAITICUS: The New Testament translated from the Sinaitic Manuscript
11 Worthy art thou, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for thou didst create all things, and because of thy will they existed and were created.
This, like the examples I have given already from some modern Bibles, can be interpreted as simply an appositive of the pronoun 'thou.'
However, the second examination of Rev. 4:11 does say that the manuscript reads κυριε ό κυριος και ό θεος.
Here is part of that article:
If we set John 20:28 aside, the one exception we find to the use of the vocative κυριε seems to be Revelation 4:11. The rendering found in most modern day translations for Revelation 4:11 is based on Codex Alexandrinus of the 5th century, reading ό κυριος και ό θεος ήμων. At the same time we find that the 4th century Codex Sinaiticus reads κυριε ό κυριος και ό θεος.
While many may be quick to note that the verse continues to use the nominative ό κυριος along with κυριε, this is explained as simple apposition, to which we would expect to find the nominative. The use of the nominative here would follow standardized grammar and would not be a demonstration of a nominative for a vocative as ones argue for John 20:28.
The answer in response to this is founded in Aland’s considering Alexandrinus a superior text. This is interesting, however, as Aland does consider Sinaiticus to be a class one manuscript, being "of a very special quality."
While it is possible that the Sinaiticus' copyist modified Revelation 4:11 to conform to the remaining texts within the book of Revelation, when we consider the entire weight of evidence for the use of the vocative form with Revelation and the other portions of the New Testament, it does lead to a reasonable level of doubt.
Of course none of this is absolutely conclusive and it is not intended to be taken as such. At present, the critical texts lean heavily on the accepted nominative rendering, and while the points herein made are of interest, they do not overturn the accepted reading. It can be reasonably said that the original reading may have been a vocative or perhaps even the divine name [YHWH], which would have well fit into Sinaticus' rendering, but to attempt to force the issue and say so conclusively would be to make an argument without a solid foundation. ....
[emphasis and information in brackets added by me.]
So, whether Sinaiticus uses kurie or not, the matter of what was written there originally by the inspired writer remains in doubt.
Therefore, I still maintain that this is a disputed, uncertain passage and as such cannot be included in proper examples.
Dec 3 08 7:58 PM
It looks the the following line except there are no gaps between letters and the overhead line should extend over two letters instead of the one I was able to use.
This would be broken down into words as follows. The two letter abbreviations (with line overhead) are so common that they could be abbreviated (which the overhead line indicates).
`KE O `K
When the abbreviations are expanded, this is what one would see:
KURIE O KURIO
And when converted to the usual small lettter form found in modern texts:
kurie, o kurioV kai qeoV hmw[n], labein thn ....
"lord [vocative], the lord and god of us, to receive the ...."
Dec 3 08 8:00 PM
Dec 3 08 8:02 PM
Dec 3 08 8:07 PM
While many may be quick to note that the verse continues to use the nominative ό κυριος along with κυριε,
So, whether Sinaiticus uses kurie or not, the matter of what was written there originally by the inspired writer remains in doubt. And, in any case, whether Codex Sinaiticus or Alexandrinus or modern texts are used, the rendering of the phrase in question may be (and often is) a predicate noun or an appositive!!
Dec 3 08 8:10 PM
Dec 3 08 8:13 PM
I don't know how to make it any plainer.
(1) I've shown how many scholars translate the phrase in Rev. 4:11 as an appositive or even a predicate noun rather than an obvious address. So they certainly don't see the nominative kurios as clearly being in address.
"The only other possible exception (Rev. 4:11) outside the all-important (for the purpose of this study) Gospel of John also does not clearly intend its use of kurios as a noun of address. It probably uses it, in fact, as an appositive (which in this case would have to be the nominative case kurios). - see RSV; NASB; ASV; NAB (‘91); AB; World English Bible; and Rotherham’s translation for examples of appositive use.
"Rev. 4:11 also uses kurie alone in the Received Text, and, therefore, is properly used as noun of address and is so translated in KJV; NKJV; MKJV; Young’s; RVR; Interlinear Bible; Third Millennium Bible; Webster’s Bible Translation; – also, apparently, the Living Bible.
"It is also used as a predicate noun in a complete clause in the Jerusalem Bible (‘You are our Lord and our God,') – which also seems an honest rendering." Obviously the noted scholars of this translation did not see it as clearly being in address!
"(Modern Language Version)
"(World English Bible)
"English Revised Version
"Twentieth Century New Testament
"(The New Testament - A New Translation in Plain English, Charles K. Williams) Worthy art Thou, our Lord and God, [appositive for 'Thou']...
(2) I've shown that everywhere else in the the writings of John's Gospel "Lord" (kurios/kurie) where it is clearly used in address, John used kurie (vocative).
"We find that the Gospel of John itself uses kurie 33 times: every time "Lord" (or "sir") is clearly meant as a noun of address (John 4:11, 15, 19, 49; 5:7; 6:34, 68; 8:11; 9:36, 38; 11:3, 12, 21, 27, 32, 34, 39; 12:21, 38; 13:6, 9, 25, 36, 37; 14:5, 8, 22; 20:15; 21:15, 16, 17, 20, 21)."
(3) I've shown how, even if Sinaiticus is correct here, the following phrase in the nominative is exactly how appositives with the vocative work according to NT Greek grammar. The quote from Scriptural-Truths says the same thing:
"While many may be quick to note that the verse [in Sinaiticus] continues to use the nominative ό κυριος along with κυριε,
So, kurie (vocative) would still have a following phrase which is in apposition (as an appositive) in the nominative case (such as 'the lord and god of us').
(4) I've shown, in the Scriptural-Truths quote that Alexandrinus is considered superior to Sinaiticus by scholars:
"This of course does not change the fact that he [Aland] considers Alexandrinus to be superior to Sinaiticus, but it is worth noting what Steven Thompson writes on the matter, stating: "From this it is evident that the reconstruction of the primitive text of the Apc. [Apocalypse or Revelation] must proceed from a broad textual basis, not overlooking the testimony of any witnesses. It is interesting to note that codex Sinaiticus, while considered to be inferior to the other uncials...."
If none of this is able to convince you that this is a verse which is disputed by a number of scholars, then I don't think anything will. And if you were willing to see any doubt about your understanding of this verse, the fact that all other uses of kurios in John are written in the vocative (kurie) should convince you that John 20:28 is also probably not in address.
So, I am no longer discussing this.
Dec 3 08 8:21 PM
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Brought to you by the Purdue University Online Writing Lab.Graphics for this handout were produced by Michelle Hansard.
An appositive is a noun or pronoun -- often with modifiers -- set beside another noun or pronoun to explain or identify it. Here are some examples of appositives.
An appositive phrase usually follows the word it explains or identifies, but it may also precede it.
In some cases, the noun being explained is too general without the appositive; the information is essential to the meaning of the sentence. When this is the case, do not place commas around the appositive; just leave it alone. If the sentence would be clear and complete without the appositive, then commas are necessary; place one before and one after the appositive.
Notice that the appositive IN ENGLISH is usually directly after the noun it is explaining (not necessarily the subject). Sometimes, however, it will come directly before the noun it is explaining. And, in most cases IN ENGLISH the appositive is set off by commas.
Now notice how the Bible translators quoted in msg #62 (under number one) rendered the phrase after the noun of address ('you'). They have placed "our Lord and our God" immediately after the pronoun "you" and set it off with commas! Clearly they intend this as an appositive.
Yes, there is a different spelling in the Greek for the noun of address (vocative) when the writers chose to use it. Apparently, some writers chose to use the nominative for some words in address. But the point being made in the original link is that "Lord/sir" (kurios) is not one of them. John ALWAYS used the vocative for "Lord" (kurie) when a noun of address was needed.
The appositive for vocatives (like kurie) could be either vocative or nominative, usually the latter.
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